Innovation and Leadership with Jess Larsen
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Navy SEAL (Ret.) & The Trident Approach with Diego Ugalde
A comment from Diego:
This was a great podcast in which we discussed the following in great detail
TTA Beach Events & What They Are Designed To Elicit
The value that water brings to growth
SEAL Culture Brotherhood in community
Seeing ourselves and each other for who we really are
What it takes to be a TTA Instructor
Building a culture
To kill or not to kill/Sadr City Operation
Flexing the plan
Needing a friend in the workplace
Send us your questions!
For people who haven't experienced combat, in my opinion, it was Black Hawk Down. That, to me, is like the most realistic battle movie I've seen. And it felt like it was just like death. But we weren't losing, dudes. They were dying all over the place, but our guys were still really safe, just like, he's not here. Where do we got to go? So creating those number one, you just know you just know that your plans are converted. Welcome to Innovation and Leadership, where I interview uncommonly high achievers like top investment fund managers, elite special operations soldiers, startup CEOs who sold their companies for billions of dollars, pro athletes, Hollywood filmmakers, really as many different kinds of experts as I can. The whole idea is to hear how they did it and then what advice they have for the rest of us that can be applied to the organizations we're trying to grow and innovate. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoyed today's show. Today on the show, I got Diego Galle. Diego, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. Much appreciated, Jess. So 20 years with the Navy, 15 years in the Seal teams. You're now the founder over at the Trident Approach. Tell people what that is. So the most common question I got when I was activated in the sales team from corporate executives is how is it that you communicate and work so well together? And I had answers for that, but I also realized that I was sort of lying when I was answering them because I would tell them best practices of what the Steels did. But I was also adding things like connection to humanity and understanding of the self, which I didn't think were necessarily rampant in our community. So what happened after I retired and I had just every option available to me on Earth to be and what to do with my time and how to spend my time, I thought that would be really cool, to create something to communicate the message that people are looking for in the sense of what we do, but then also adding some more, I think hidden things that could help them actually get what they're actually trying to do. Cool. So you got out in 2018 and did you start it right after, or did you do anything in between? Well, we were officially started in July of 17, a year before I got out. So I got out in May of 18. And our first event was with a tech company here in San Diego that we did in August of 18. And then we've been sort of off to the races since then, minus Covet, of course. We're a very in person based company, so we went into hibernation there for about a year. But, yeah, we've been pretty much rolling since 2018. That's fine. And you've got about 30 guys. Is that right on the team? Yes. We don't bring them all out at once we work with YPOs a lot, for example. And some of those guys can be really small groups. It will be like a group of ten of them. So I'll bring out maybe one or two instructors or we'll have huge events with like Google or Hertz where they have over 150 to 300 people and then bring out the whole grade there. It just depends. Yeah. So people can probably guess some ideas of what's in these events. But for people who haven't been to one, can you give us a bit of a rundown of what they could expect?
What we try to do is go as deep as people will let us. When people hear Navy Seals, they get completely scared off, like, oh, my gosh, these guys are going to kill us. They're going to smash us and destroy us. That's not what we do at all. What we try to do is get people to a place within themselves where whatever voices or kind of stories that are being told within them kind of come up to the surface, where they're sort of undeniable, they're forced to listen to what's the rhetoric that's going on inside their head. And it's interesting because what I'm finding that happens a lot of times for the first time, I hear a lot where people didn't even realize that there was this ongoing story kind of going on. So our events are designed just to get those stories to come up to top. And then once we hear what those stories are, then we can help them kind of figure out best ways ahead. So the way we go about doing that is our events are super fun, but they're also super focused. So we do have some physical activity in there. But again, that's just to get these voices to come to the top. And then once we understand what they are, then we break them up into teams. And then we cycle through different stations that are designed specifically to elicit a very specific response, either in culture, trust, leadership, communication, consciousness, understanding of the ego, whatever it is. And so we put them through and they go through and teams just organically. We don't give them much guidance, but they know what the end state is. But then at the end we have a chance to say, hey, did you mean to do this in the moment under stress? And a lot of times I didn't realize I was doing that kind of thing. And okay, so if you wanted to do it different, how would you? And then we allow them to go through again. And the great thing about what I love about what our programs do is this is a safe place to make mistakes. And everyone knows that. We've talked to everybody about these things. So no matter what you say, no matter what you do, it's fine. Now that you're understanding and recognizing you got your hands on it. If you could do anything different, how would you? And so what that does is allow people to sort of be themselves or what they think is themselves. And that's where the opportunity for growth and development comes from. So how much of it is like outdoor versus classroom work? And how long are your events? Typically we're 100% customizable. No event we've ever done has been the same as any previous. It just depends on what people need your long programs. We have half day programs. We have programs are just designed entirely for keynotes. Some are workshops. Some are taking people out into the mountains, some are having people out on the beach. It just depends. For the vast majority of the programs, it sounds something like, hey, we're going to be in San Diego for a couple of days. Can your team come out for half a day and put us through that's kind of what it normally works out to be? So we'll take their teams out on the beaches here in Mission Bay and get them in the water, even if you can't swim. I think every event that we've ever had, we've had at least one person doesn't know how to swim. It's all good. Everybody's wearing life jackets, and you got a bunch of Navy Seals around. It's completely safe. But anyway and the reason why we do that is because water changes a lot of things. It really puts people out of their comfort zone. Even if you're in way steep, it has to be deep for things to happen. So it's something that's a really valuable tool that we love to use, and it really is helpful in individual growth for the people who are searching for a deeper part of themselves. It's an interesting comment. I think about water, and I think my parents were both lifeguards. And so we did a lot of swimming as kids growing up in previous life, lived in lifeguards, and it was just kind of like the family thing we did. And then when I got married and moved down to Southern California, I grew up a snowboarder. So I'm like, okay, we're perfect. That's why I moved to Huntington Beach. Right. And it is such a humbling thing. Sometimes I would go out on days that were so big, like waves hitting the Pier in Huntington Beach kind of days. And no chance that Huntington just closes out at that point. Right. But just to have the raw energy of laying on a surfboard and going up and down by 15ft in seconds. But then one day specifically, it got so big, I was like, oh, I don't know if I can make it back in because Huntington, it kind of grinds you on the sand when you go over the falls or even just crashes on top of you. So if it's close out, I know just hanging out there for like 45 minutes. If you've been to Huntington, like almost as far out as the end of the Pier. But it is interesting because I used to get up and surf every day before work when I first moved there. And I just remember so many times, just like, being genuinely humbled by the ocean, you're just like, wow, this is. I can't think of a better way to say it. It's such a distinct comparison of your power versus its power and yours being minuscule. Anyways, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Yeah, well, a couple one. Well, really, that's what really separates Seals from all the other special operations organizations out there is we live in the water, and when it's a harsh environment, it is the harshest environment there can be. You don't have a lot of control. You can plan all you want, you can do all you want. But if the current shift or whatever it is, it is humbling. And when most people I find go to the water, it's more like a frolicky thing or just want to dip their toes in or maybe go first and come back out. But all of a sudden, when you get into that environment in a combat situation, now, all of a sudden you got four or five foot ways which are not that big, but you've got all this equipment, it boats and you're going at speed and weather gets everything changes. So I think that I feel what you're saying about it being humbling. You can be the best swimmer, unknown, seals to drown, you can swim 20 miles, but one wrong thing happens. All vets are off, you got some equipment going on, you can't get detached from yourself, whatever it is. So, yeah, I think that's always a healthy level of respect for all watermen. Whether you're in a kayak or you're a surfer, you're a Seal. Like, hey, I'm in the arena right now. I got to keep my looks about me. The other thing I wanted to mention that because it did kind of come up from us talking about our events, unless specifically requests. If we don't take people in the ways, even if they're slow rolling ways, people are just not used to that stuff. Where we do our events is if you've ever been to mission based, it's protected. Amazing place. It's basically just a saltwater Lake. There are no currents, really. And it's safe. Good for corporate liability. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Liability is a big thing with insurance. You're like, oh, my God, you put people out in the water like, yeah, why was wrong. Yes, but it is one of those things. But again, water is what it is. So you don't need currents, you don't need waste. Sometimes I just ask people, hey, just hold your breath and put your head underwater and come back up. And it's just like this thing, this bridge that they have to cross. So it's really beautiful to see having people in that safe environment be able to cross those thresholds that they wouldn't normally otherwise. So as part of why we love what we do, water really is a big assist in that area. A question I have. I'm interested in your answer. I ask this question. So one of my favorite feels of all time that I met, we talked about when I used to consult to the group that you retired out of. Right. One of the sixes that I met over there I was talking about before we started who came on the show. Steve, I want to see what your answer to the same question is. I think about having spent a lot of time specifically with SF guys and unit guys and forced recomarine, more so than Marshall guys. But I feel like as much as those guys love their brothers, there's something like about I don't know if it's like because you rely on each other so much as swim buddies, but the team factor is so intense with you guys. I'm interested in any thoughts you have on why that like the depth of connection is so strong between certain team guys, maybe even more so than other soft operators. I was a medic with the Marines before I actually became a Seal. It took me about ten years to become a Seal and I spent a lot of time with the army and I have really close friends. Having said that, I can't really speak to what it's like to be on an 18. Not really. So all I can speak to is how we feel and why we feel what we feel in the Seal teams. And what I can say is if you could think of Seal training or basic underwater demolition Seal training, what people commonly referred to as Buds. If you can think of that as sort of being reborn into a different way of life and a different way of being, you learn instantly the value of a swim buddy and the importance of a swim buddy whether you want to or not. It's like if you're more than an honest length away from your swim buddy, you and the whole class are going to pay. And that's through pushups or acount bodybuilders or whatever it is. So Bud is specifically designed to find out who belongs here. And people ask all the time because we talk about cultures so much and strategy and these types of things. So what is the culture of the Seal teams? I say never leave your swim buddy, never quit. There's always a way and a standard of excellence. If you can do those four things, then you belong in the Seal community. And so what Buds does is spend so much time focusing in on those areas that when it comes time to graduate or to leave the nest, one of the four things you're carrying with yourself is never leave your swim buddy. So it's ingrained from us and away from birth. And when you get to the Seal teams. That is the standard. I mean, not every school is sort of the way it is. When you get out of the school and kind of go out into the real world, like getting an NBA, whatever buzz is like the way it is when you get into the Seal team, it's like, hey, for sure, when you're in the Seals, you're not like going everywhere together without an arms length away from somebody. But when you're operational for sure, that is the standard. That is the expectation. That's the common language that we all speak. So again, I can't speak for the other organizations that I have beyond huge respect for every other organization that's out there. But I can say pretty easily that I think that that's why we care so much about the teams within the Seal teams. It's just part of our DNA. As you were saying that, it made me think member. I was telling you about that E nine that we went and taught that jury together and we're like, we're crashed out in this hotel room. There's like me and him and this Recon guys share in a hotel room. So you get real close over ten days,
right. But we are friends already. But we're beyond friends after that, right. And he's close. He's big influence on me. I'd say his house when I was in San Diego, stuff like this. He invited me to his retirement, the Grinder. There stuff like that. And as you were saying that, I remember him saying something to me. Like when you're swimming through stuff that's like chocolate milk and you're in a hostile environment, sometimes it's like you and him and that's it. You can't really express the uncertainty plus hostile environment, plus you can't see anything. And this guy is your only lifeline to life. You can't overestimate what that bond is like. And when you're saying that, that story came to mind for me, yeah, that's true. And that's what I love about the whole process of going through Sale training or if you're training for a marathon or whatever, whatever it is, when you go through those moments of stress and even to where you can get to your breaking point, you're not necessarily sure how things are going to go. That's really where you find out deeper parts of what's actually going on there that you'll never experience. If you're living your life in clouds and rainbows and cotton candy and stuff like that, there's just no way to experience that. So for sure, part of the likelihood of being a Seal at least twice a year for five weeks is to go underwater with a rebreather. And it's just you and your body. The only thing you can see is a glowing Compass that's it can't see anything else. And creatures come up and bump up against you in the dark and diving under a ship and you just hear the humming of like, hey, this propeller, this 30 foot tall propeller can just start moving at any moment. Yeah. I mean, your ego starts to go on fire. Your mind starts to go on fire. And all these things happen and you're absolutely. And them. Ashley is absolutely right. Well, okay, I got my brother right here, okay. I'm not alone. I got air. So everything is okay. It's true. And it's a wonderful feeling to feel that way, to feel that connected to somebody. It's unique. I mean, the same sort of feeling that you get on a battlefield. Like, hey, we're in this. It's not common. Anyone can feel it. But how could you if you're not in those situations? I think it's so great that you've built this organization and that so many organizations are taking up on the opportunity to have you guys work with their people. By the way, anybody wants to check out Diego's organization, go to thetridentapproach.com and check it out yourself. But it's actually that retirement party that sticks out to me. I remember. So after the thing at the grinder, blah, blah, we go back to his house and it's just a bunch of his closest buddies from their time. Right. And it was funny to me, like, how normal and how different they were compared to my regular buddies. Like, they're talking about football. They're kind of complaining about their spouses, like regular dudes do about this and that and the other thing. Right. And they've got the same worries about the mortgage and whatever. Over hours, there's the high nice me. But over hours, like, you find out who people really are when you're there for an entire day together. Right. And then there's this other side of it that I thought about because he has a couple of little kids and these other guys have kids. And for me, like, there's a big benefit that I feel like the rest of this country has to learn from you guys about. I don't know. I describe it as, like, it's not all about me
talking about the one guy has really bad TBI. And they were talking about that from a couple of explosions and stuff. And it's tough. And you could just see, like, the brotherly love. It wasn't like the regular dudes. I have nothing wrong with me act like there's like, this genuine brother in love of admitting, like, real vulnerability, like I'm screwed up kind of thing. And it was like such a safe environment in my Buddy's kitchen for them to talk about this together. It just had this thought that stuck with me ever since.
I don't usually cry on my own podcast, but I got emotional. Now I'm with you, brother. I think about this idea. All those guys in that room were literally willing to die and give up their lives on those missions and have their kids grow up without a dad so that my kids don't have to. And I don't know, that just stuck with me ever since. I think people talk about sacrifice, and it's a pretty hypothetical thing in most of or like, would you die for your country and stuff like that? It's pretty hypothetical for basically 99% of the rest of my friends. And in that kitchen, hearing about the multiple explosions that guy had luckily survived and stuff that you can tell very easily might not have. No, I think that there's an element of selflessness that you guys live and you don't even realize it because you spend so much time with each other and you all have this feeling that, man, I think our country would be a better country if more of us could get more of that in our bones like you guys have
first. I'm honored to be in this place with you right now, genuinely. Thank you so much for that. Cause that to me, that's real living, man. There's no makeup going on here. This is real stuff. And to feel just like this profound level of gratitude that you have for what the military community does and who they are and how they are, I just feel like I'm lucky to hear that stuff. So thank you so much. That's my version of thank you for your service. Oh, man, you're welcome. And thank you for yours. If
you were saying that in a really great version of the way things are, that more Americans would be that connected in terms of not being so selfish. And I know that we all are. And it's not just Americans. It's humanity all the world around. We already are that connected. We already are in a place where we are willing and capable of doing superhuman feats simply for no other reason than just to do it for someone else. The problem is or I don't know what's the problem, but one of the things that we have to grow fast. And this is what I love so much about what we do is we just need to separate from the rat race of all this static of ego driven existence. I need to be safe. I need to be taken care. I need this. I need this because people who think in that way don't have what they need in some way, shape or form. I don't know what it is, whether it's love or support or healthy organs, whatever it is. But I think the reason why people in the military, law enforcement, fire Department, all that stuff, all the nurses and doctors going through covet. I think the reason why maybe that in some instances may not necessarily be a thing is because we don't have to worry about that. We got it. We got that part. So we have energy. And I guess another way to say it is people talk about values and principles a lot. Like I can say, for example, one of my values is honesty, integrity, for sure. But if you hold up a pistol to somebody in my family's head and they ask me to tell them something. I will tell you whatever you need me to tell you in order for that situation to become safe. So values are really based on resources as long as everyone's safe. Yes. I'm going to be honest. And you can do that up and down the line for everything. And so I think the reason why more of a collective part of humanity doesn't have this collective team thing, because they don't have that as a resource where it's in space, in the military, or in any of these organizations where your lives depend on each other. And all it is is a shift in consciousness and awareness. Well, wait a minute. When you see people in need, I mean, you're always looking around and find people who are there to serve, always. So what actually is there, for whatever reason, we're just not internalizing it. Some people don't feel that, but it is already there. All we have to do is just slow down a little bit and see how awesome everything is and how awesome each other really are, transcending the immediate message and that and see ourselves and each other for who we really are and see that all of that is there. It's all there. I think the next question I have thank you for sharing that. I think the next question I have is related to something you just said about don't quit. It's funny again, because I spend a lot more of my time with YUSU Sock Army guys. And there's the natural Navy rivalry. And you guys like to rip each other, especially when the other ones aren't around sometimes, right? I was surprised to get a Navy Seal book from an active duty unit guy, and he gave me the Goggins book. And when you think about this idea, I really enjoy a number of the nonfiction Seal books, and I think that there's like, I'm interested in your thoughts on. It feels like the never quit attitude is something that can be like a little bit baked in but can definitely be grown within us. Do you have any thoughts about entrepreneurs or athletes or anybody listening that wants to cultivate more of an ability to not quit, and they want to conquer that desire to quit within themselves and to give in when things are hard? Man, that's a loaded question. So if someone has quit within them, no book or whatever is going to really help them, there is a resilience to humanity that exists just like the connectivity. But if it's not readily apparent or on the surface, essentially all it means is healing needs to be done. So if you have a team of 15 people and three of them tend to kind of quit whenever it's not about, hey, this is the value in not quitting. It's about all of us are capable of doing what it is that we got going on here, but you're not able to in the moment what's going on and without getting too deep, almost always that stuff really trails back into childhood stuff. We grew up with things that were kind of handed down to us either in our DNA or by experience, whatever it is. You heal those things and you don't have to worry about it. But I think part of where I'm excited to see the human race go is to look at those things as not as weaknesses, but just opportunities for growth and strengthening and healing and all that.
You're going to find that. We all know the value of perseverance and persistence. We know that over time, things will change and just keep going. Just keep going. Entrepreneurs, the whole deal. Your company is going to succeed if you don't quit, plain and simple. We all know that. But still, there are some people that still quit. So it's just really a matter of if you did quit anything, whatever it is, the deeper question is why did you quit and why all that stuff to death? And once you figure out what that thing is, that the nucleus. Buying where you can't buy it anymore more down. You can't Whittle it anymore down. Then if you pay specific attention to healing that and strengthening it and developing it to where that now becomes a power for you, there is no quit. Yeah, I feel like there's nuances. Warren Buffett says if you find yourself, he's talking about businesses that have poor underlying economics, like, it's just not a good industry. If you find yourself in a leaky boat, energy is typically better spent finding a new boat instead of bailing out the one you're in. And obviously, I think about that same guy, the retirement party guy, he was always saying, be like Gumby, be flexible. Don't let this situation break you. Right. Adapt, overcome. So I don't mean like, never quit. Keep hitting your head against a wall. But those times when you're like, man, and the grass looks greener elsewhere, but, you know, you're kind of rationalizing. Those are the times I'm thinking of. I'm interested for you. Like the toughest time in Bud, the toughest times in Hell Week, things like that. What did you tell yourself? What did that look like for you? Overcoming hardship. So I went through buds almost twice. I went the first time when I had just turned 20, and I was there for four months. I was out of shape, wasn't ready to be there. And Friday before Hell Week, they called me in the office to say, hey, man, you're not welcome here anymore. See you later. And because I failed, like, literally every time run. So I spent the next eight years just having really terrible dreams for about three times a month about not making it through. And I finally went back at 29. So going through budget that second time, I mean, all of it was an honor. When I went through, when I was 20, I'm like, hey, I applied to be here. Like, what? But when I went back, I was like, every day that I was there, I was grateful to be there. So in a sense, even in Hell Week, I was in an awareness of that. This is a celebration for sure. It hurt and the boat on top of my head, my neck popped and I felt like I thought I broke my neck and all of that stuff and it hurt and everything like that. But I had been through so much self inflicted pain in that eight or nine year gap in between that I thought, no matter what is going on, it's not as bad as that for me in that moment. I don't know. It's kind of hard to explain. I was just really grateful to be there by the day. Every day was brand new. The first time I went through when I was struggling tremendously, I did find the swims and then the water not tying the breath holes and all that stuff, but it was just the soft sand running that was just destroying me. And my bones were like, hey, dude, we're not ready for this. What are you doing? There's a saying in the Seal teams are too stupid to quit. And I was just like, well, getting back up and we're getting ready to go do a day of buds and logs and boats and stuff. Well, here we go. I really felt like I was that way. It just wasn't a thing for me because even getting to budge for me took two years. I mean, there was every way you could fail or whatever to even get there. I had to pass. So I don't know, even when it was as hard, as hard as hard as it could be, I was just like, well, this is my life. Just quit life kind of thing. I just kind of endured it. So I don't feel like I have the best answer for you there. But to me, there's a lot baked into that. I think about this concept of how much of life is a choice. Do you know the Victor Frankel book, Man's Search for Meaning? No. So good Survivor, Rouschwitz. Incredible guy. Yeah. Basically, I feel like the point of the book is you can take away my research and all my prestige in life. You can kill my family, take them away from me. You can take everything away from me except for my right to choose how I'm going to feel and react to you taking everything away from me. Yes. Anyways, really great book. Recommended to anybody. Seems like kind of like you'd like, but I don't know. I feel like there's a lot in that answer of just choosing to decide, this is my life, you know, it's like marriage. Marriage is so hard, right? And for the people who feel like divorce is easy. And divorce is a like, people have very different attitudes about divorce. You talk to some people and they like, they got their wife's name as a tattoo and somebody says, that's a big commitment. The marriage wasn't
right. There is a mindset of like, Am I in this as long as it's not hard or like, or is this my life? You know what I mean? Am I in this either way?
Anyways, I feel like there is a lot in that answer. Like, you just deciding like, no, this is my life, you know, quit life. You figure it out. It's a fundamental framing of what the problem you're looking at. Yeah, I think the one thing that I would add into that is it was organic how I was feeling. I didn't say, okay, so what do I have to do to get this mindset, you know what I mean? And that's what I mean. I think the real valuable answers in that are, like, people who just really struggle with quitting, they quit everything in their life. And finally one day they just didn't quit because they figured out the answer. We're all born with things. It's the same reason why a five year old or a three year old can walk up to a piano band say, hey, what's this? And just start knocking out music. I feel like perseverance and persistence was one of the things that it just was part of me. So for people who are struggling with quitting or whatever, other than healing, I'm not much of a resource because I just have talents that some talents that other people don't. And if I could just really understand on a deeper, deeper level what they're actually going through, man, I feel like I could be so much more valuable. I was born not to quit. Like, who cares? Who cares about that story? It's the people who have overcome just this gnawing, egoic pain of quitting every day and then finally defeated that. That's the answer that I want to hear. Well, I think that's why I like that David Goggins book so much is nobody told me he could be a sale. He had to lose £100 to even be allowed to try out. And, like, he basically talked about a lifestyle quitting, quitting, quitting, quitting. And then he just decided, I'm going to change that habit in myself. And he did it so fully that I feel like it gives hope to other people. Rewiring the mind is not an easy thing to do, and he did it. And that's incredible when you think about the kind of guys that you select to come join the Trident approach. We were talking for a minute before the show about how not every seal is right for the work that you do. What is your selection process look like? What are the attributes? What are the things that you're looking for? Well, the reason why people are reaching out to us at all is because we are Seals. So that's kind of the starting point. Or also for sure. I mean, the people that support us operationally, not every one of our instructors is a Seal. We have both guys. We have electronic warfare guys. We have intel people. But people who understand our community, these conversations that you and I are having right now, they know this way of life. They only know what it is like to depend on somebody else. That's starting point. Then after that is, what's your level of emotional intelligence? How much do you actually genuinely care about other people where you don't have to be the center of attention for anything? It's like they are what truly matters in that moment. And not only that, when they're going through maybe some potentially dark moments for themselves. It's not like, hey, get your ass up or get out of here. One of the two. How can I get down there with you and then just be with you as you're going through this? It's a completely different mindset. I say most Seals because there is that standard of excellence, and the expectation is that everyone around me will be this way. And the Trident approach, we're not in the Seal teams anymore. We are wherever you are. And so if your organization or your team is that's how we have to be. One of the things that we don't do is we don't tell people what to do at all. We just stand shoulder to shoulder with you and help you find your way. That's not common in the team. Just like, hey, this is how you do it. This is the standard. Go ahead and make it happen. And if you can't either leave or keep trying to get it almost absent of emotion. The trainer approach is very emotional. Our events are very emotional. It's common for crying to happen, what you experienced. Yeah, honestly, that's a big thing. And we set the stage for these things to just come out, release healing, which I see that is just being healing and just being human because we are. And that's really where okay, if you have those components within you, then we can start talking more about if you're the right fit for the Trident approach. And to be honest, I did the math as best as I could. There was a number I had to guess, which is what percentage of Seals are have this really high level emotional intelligence. And the math that I came up with, 2% of the American population is the right fit for the trading approach. So it's this wide spectrum of I don't know you, but I love you genuinely, but we have combat experience, and then we have this understanding of what it is to be in and lead elite teams. It's a really cool team to be a part of. I'm a real book nerd. I listen to multiple audiobooks a week kind of guy and one of my favorite books recently is the Netflix CEO Reed Hastings wrote this book called no Rules, Rules. And he said, what if we think about businesses less like a family and more like a pro sports team where we're looking for the right person for the job at the right time kind of thing? And it really made me think a lot of your community and selection and kind of like, hey, we're going to teach you a lot of stuff, but you've got to be at this level before we can teach you stuff because the mission is too important. If you can't get up to our initial standards to try out, we can't help you with that. You got to get that part by yourself, and then we can add on top of it. And that's a high bar. Right. And you look at Buds and the failure rate and this kind of thing before you go for another two and a half years of learning how to be a Seal. I think a lot of me, the civilian world doesn't understand like buds is not buds, is not the whole story. How much more there is after that. Right. But my question for you is, let's say entrepreneurs listening today or investment fund managers or people are maybe wanting to look more seriously at like, hey, if we really believe in what we're doing and we think that we want to increase our talent density at our organization and they're rethinking, what does our selection process look like for organization? Obviously selecting for different traits than the teams are or even that you are at the China approach. But are there any principles for selection when you're looking for high talent density or just any thoughts that you have? Yes, a lot. One of them is familiar, probably with Simon Sinek. Start with why he's got a bunch of videos out on that. But one of the videos, he says kind of a fast way to find out your why is to go to your closest friends. You can't go to your family because they're kind of too close, but your closest friends and say, hey, why are we friends? And then if they give some sort of surface answer that could really apply to anybody. So what is it specifically about me that you would always be there for me no matter what is it about me that you would always be there for no matter what? And the responses that you get or that you could get are really powerful, and it can bring even those closer friendships closer. But when you start to take out the really significant words in there, you can do that with your organization, too. What are these like key words within your organization? One of the words that came up for me a lot was adventure and trust and those kinds of things. So I was like, okay, part of the trial approach is adventure. Right. Because it is me. It was a reflection of me. And the same is true, like I said, for organization. So if you can get a deep understanding of your organization on that level of like, what is it about us? And you can even ask this if you're doing the best you can, maybe you have relationships with your clients that you can have these kinds of conversations with that are not so clinical and sterile. A lot of our clients, we're friends. So I could ask them about this, about the tried and approach, what is it about us? And then once you find out all those keywords and you get a couple of points of data to collect from, there's your hiring process right there. Do you have a sense of adventure? Are you beyond loyal? Do you create a sense of belonging and sharing? And whatever it is, whatever it is, that can be really helpful, I think. And instead of like what you were talking about, can you do the job? They have nothing to do with each other. Most of the times you can train people to do with you, but are they just organically matched with your organization? I think is a big thing that people overlook. At least it seems common. But also the thing is, though, it seems like a lot of people know that. But there is something in the way of making that actually happen. They know they can train people. They know that it's very important how these people are. So I think one thing that I can say that can help them bridge the gap between who are you and who are we? Is just to interview through stories. Not like, where did you go to school? Or what's your favorite thing? Just elicit as many stories as you can out of these people, and they're going to get excited, hopefully, as they're going about their answers. Just look for those words, those keywords that are deep reflections of your organization. If those things are kind of coming out over and over again, it's like this person might work, but it's so complicated. People are complicated. And I am right now in this moment, different in some ways than I would be in other places, just for all kinds of reasons. My wife has a cold right now that has an impact on me. Whatever. My daughter had to have her friend come over to talk, and I don't know what she was talking about. So that has an impact on me. So all those things can happen. So anybody's interviewing, you don't know what they're going through. They don't know if they lost somebody from Kobe recently. You don't know any of those things. So there's no like, okay, cool. That's what I got to do. This is done. It takes time. Yeah, it is what it is. So when you got out, you were senior chief petty officer, is that right? Yeah. Cool. When you think about one of the lessons you learned or one of the most impactful experiences downrange. Is there a story you can share with us? Yeah, maybe 100 or so. Just stories downrange change.
Yeah. We were going through Ramadani. I've been to Ramadi twice and Ramadi at the time. Both times. Well, the first time, there was like one of the worst places in all the war zones. It was just like one of the worst places there was. And we were getting shot at. We immediately began to pursue this person who was shooting us are shooting at us. And I kicked in the door. I had my weapon pointed, and he dropped his weapon. And so I immediately went over there to secure him and put zip ties on him and these types of things. And all of a sudden you go on through the normal procedure stuff, things really de escalate very quickly after that, and you kind of transition from trying to kill this guy to all right, so now we got to whatever. But in that moment, in that gap of this person is no longer trying to kill us and us leaving. I really felt and I'm not saying that I'm right, but I really felt that if he could have been doing anything else that day, he would have been that the assumption of this driving hate that's like 24 hours a day in my mind was what was probably happening with the enemy at all times. I didn't see that in him at all. I didn't feel it in him. And these things kind of go through your mind for me in like a flash 10th of a second. And so when I went through my mind, I just looked at him and I rubbed his shoulder, and he looked up at me and he started crying.
I don't know what happened to him after that. We arrested him. Whatever took him to the I forget the TIFF or whatever. I can't remember. It was called taskball holding facility. Basically like a jail. But just the insanity, the politics behind everything, the cultural attention, everything, the fear of, like, Saddam's regime, everything just all culminated and wanted to kind of create this war. And I know that human beings can get swept up into things that are necessarily of their design or whatever. And I don't know this guy's story. I have no idea, to be honest. I don't really care. All I can say is that I felt in that moment, which is just me. I mean, that's an amazing moment to look at somebody who literally is trying their very best to kill you just 2 seconds ago. And it was different then. Oh, shoot. I'm caught. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do a whole lot, like time out. I quit. It wasn't that. It was just I don't know what's going on in my life, something like that, and that's that always stuck with me. And I was really grateful for that moment. I'm sure he was, too, because I think by all right, I would have been fine if I would have shot him. I would have been protected by the law. But whatever. I'm glad it turned out the way that it did. I'm glad I got to see that in him straight in the face of somebody. The purpose of us being there in the first place, it was really powerful moment. It's interesting that human to human connection. Right. Earlier, I talked about Team teaching that class with that 25 year Seal over Nigeria. Right. And it was this idea of, like, they're dealing with Boca Rom, who just kidnapped those 200 girls and was causing huge headaches and killing people in the country. Right. Terrorizing. And the team taught this class together about how so I was with this group called the Arbiter Institute. A lot of stuff is based on this Austrian philosopher from 100 years ago named Martin Boober, who says he thinks our biggest people problems come not from what we say or do, but how we are thinking about people when we said it or did it. Okay. Am I thinking about you, like a real life human being like me or like a piece of dirt? Right. Yeah. It's an object. Are you objectifying them? Right. Yeah. And so I had a bunch of stories from the SWAT team commander from Kansas City that he had prepped me to tell. And then the guy was with told his stories and even simple things less dramatic than your story of like, they had to clear streets and they have to check all these cars for bombs in the trunk and stuff like this, right? Yeah. So they really do not want to be out in the open and get sniped. And so they're just crowbarring these trunks and, like, get out of there as soon as you can. Right. And he says he's like, by being a little bit more human, we actually got way more effective. We started noticing there weren't cars around, so we started talking to people like, hey, where are all the cars? And they're like, well, we like that you're getting the insurgents out of our neighborhood, but it'd be great if you weren't, like, breaking our windows and Cobra in our cars. So we all learn not to park them here because you guys will do that. Yeah. And he just had this flash of like, oh, it's not just all about me. And he starts thinking in general. He's like, you don't know what's faster than Crow buying a trunk to see if there's a bomb in it. Asking the eleven year old outside to run in the house and grab the keys, that's actually faster. You want to keep your guys safe. It is actually safer for my whole team to ask if somebody can grab the keys and come up with the trunk without destroying their damage. It's like simple little thing, but by considering their humanity at the same time, a, how much greater is that for them that I'm not breaking their stuff. And B, it actually keeps my guys safer. And it's just that little bit. It's like the tactical advantage of thinking about other humans as a human. It is the same what you're talking about. Essentially, breaking it all down to its core is just ego versus not fear. When we are operating from a place of fear, we are operating from the smallest version of ourselves. And so what he did was he made that transition from fear to love. Hey, how can we support? And I think that there's a way to do that in a powerful way and to get exactly what we're hoping for through love, vice, fear, leaving the rat race for, I think is the way ahead. And that's what I'm so excited about, because these conversations, the conversation that you and I are having right now is not unusual. When people are starting to understand you can't live your life completely through fear decision making process, through what if this happens and who hold accountable for this and all that noise. It just brings out the smallest in us that there's so much more that we're capable of bringing to the table and that comes through love. Really? I love it. Well, can we go for another downrange story? Back to our previous topic of the don't quit. Yeah. Can you think of some time, like a firefighter or super tight situation? And the don't quit attitude made all the difference. And you adapted instead of succumb. Yeah. So we were going into Solder City, which was at that time, that was the most dangerous place that we knew of. And we were going in for our first most missions are captured kill missions. This mission was a kill capture mission, which meant that we were within the rules of war, able to just kill this guy straight off the bat. We didn't have to as long as we positively identified the guy. So we were all excited about him. He was the one guy that we wanted to get from the moment that we showed up onto deployment. He was like our number one. Yes. And so we got the trigger mechanism. Hey, he's there. Let's go. Normally, we're used to just going out in our Humvees, just our task unit going to go do this. It. But because we were going to Solder City, they're like, hey, you guys need helicopters, you need tanks, you need all this stuff. We stopped to go pick up the tanks, and on the way out of the base, one of the tanks is transmission blue. And they couldn't get out of first year. And so if I remember right, it should have taken us like maybe 40 minutes to get the Solder City from where we were at the Baghdad International Airport. And we were maybe supposed to do the hit somewhere around 02:00 in the morning or something. We didn't get there until like seven in the morning, and it was completely broad daylight. And because we were not able to get out of first gear with the tank because we're going with all of these people, they saw us coming from forever ago. There was all this imagery of somebody going to somebody's door, knocking on the door and leaving. And just a couple of minutes later, like, four or five people piling out with AK 47. So all of Solder City was ready for us. And we're showing up. I'm sitting there, and I've got visual on the camera of what's going on. I got my night vision glasses on because it was nighttime, and I fell asleep because we're whatever. It was getting close to my bedtime. And all of a sudden we stopped. And all of a sudden, I get this kick in the shoulder of like, VDO, get out of the vehicle kind of thing. The guy screaming at me. I'm like, okay, so I get out. And all of a sudden, two things I noticed. One, the sun was up, and I'm like, well, that's not normal. And two, there was all this automatic machine gun fire going off everywhere. I'm like, okay, well, here we go. So if the door goes down and we hop out and the first thing you do when you're getting shot at is you kind of get down. So I found a little bit to get down into and kind of get my Wits about me. I knew where we were from the briefs and everything. I knew where we had to go. But then all of a sudden, and I had my guys that I had to kind of keep track of. And all of a sudden I looked down, and this ditch that I jumped into was like a sewer ditch. So I was completely covered, and it was black. I'm total black Iraqi excrement. And I was just like, it's funny when you think about what your responses would be when you're literally about to die, like in 2 seconds. And for sure, I can tell you that the overwhelming feeling that I had was just as huge I'm covered in right now. Yeah. Okay, cool. So now we got to do this anyway. I got the guys. We had our other guys when we were ready to go to the target building. So we got up and we later charged on the store. And it was actually a school where we had intelligence that he was actually at was no longer in school, like his compound. So then all of a sudden we looked at, hey, Where's the dog handler? Because we brought this dog handler that we didn't normally have. And then all of a sudden, while the whole city is on fire, we had to go through a search and rescue mission for this dog handler in the middle of a dog in the middle of firefight without getting anything. And so there was all this. Where did he go? He was this Army National Guard guy who was an amazing dude. But we had been working together for years. We know everything about each other. Where we're going to go, what we're going to do, all this stuff. He's just like, hey. So anyway, the funny thing was there was one of those floor freezers, something that you would put in your garage. You fill up with steaks. He just happened to grab his dog and get inside of that thing. I don't know how we found it, but we found them. So bullets are flying slowly are going off, heavy guns are going off. And also we go to the school, we blow up, we blow out the door, and we go clear the school. He's completely not there. But now all the Solder City is just coming in after us, and you're seeing all these Apache helicopters and stuff. Everything is just going off all at once. It's just the best movie that I can use to describe for people who haven't experienced combat. In my opinion, it was Black Hawk Down. That, to me is like the most realistic battle movie I've seen. And it felt like it was just like that. But we weren't losing, dudes. They were dying all over the place, but our guys were still really safe. He's not here. Where do we got to go? And so creating those, number one, you just know that your plans are going to work. You just know that they are. You make plans for just because we had to flex all these kinds of different locations, which is very common. But when you think about it in terms of not doing this before, it could be a very complex thing to go make an entry on a house. But for us, it's just like, hey, we're used to this thing. He's not here. Where is he going to be at anyway? We hopped into vehicles when we moved to another place. He wasn't there either. But everything was kind of going so badly that we just had to leave. And we had an idea on the way out, but everybody was fine. And we ended up making it out there. We had our dog handler back, and all that side story was the reason why Solder City was so alive like that. We didn't realize it until a couple of weeks later that there was a team of British journalists that were being held captive, like right across the street. And we didn't even know it. So it was just like. Because we were just trying to figure out why is this like the world is ending, what is going on? But anyway, so we're talking about Gumby or talking about flexing. This is something that we talk about too. It's just dropping expectations and just understand what is right. That's something I think that the Seals do that's way above in terms of trying to pursue consciousness. I don't care what could have, should have, would have, what is? And so he wasn't there anymore. Or, hey, we can't go and blow up this door yet because we got to find our dog. Nobody's. Like, who the hell come? Nobody. There's none of that. And I love telling that story about Captain stolenberger from the pilot was the United Airlines where he landed in the Hudson River when the bird stripes hit and the engines were failed. He wasn't like, how come they don't design these engines better? How come they don't have, like, these radar things that kill birds? Or it wasn't that. It was like Bird Striker landing in the Hudson. And it was just immediately going to problem solving mode rather than, who do we hold accountable for this? What's the problem? How can this happen? And so I think the reason why the Seal teams and all other military units are so good at this is because just like Mike Tyson says, nothing lasts, no plan. Last, beyond the first someone gets punched in the mouth, that's it. And so it's the expectation that things are going to change, but when they change, how are we going to respond? And so all of those things, literally nothing got done that day rather than, except for a bunch of bad guys dying. But it was just flowing from one situation to the next, receiving it how it was, and not getting too spun up about it and just doing what needed to be done and just moving on. I can imagine some other organizations that have been involved with or interacted with where that wouldn't have been the case. It would have just been like, everything would have went completely at a crap once the tank transmission blew. Like, we can't do this. Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like this idea of genuine leadership. It's almost like choosing not to indulge in self pity, not to indulge in blame, and just focus on what you can actually influence. Kind of like stoicism. Like, don't waste time on what you can't control. Try and focus on what you can control or what you can influence. And it's like, it's such a pleasure to work with people like that that they're not indulging in their negative emotions. Their full effort and energy is put into. How do I make things better now? Yeah, those people great to be around. It's a lot more convenient, really, at the end of the day to work with people who don't respond in that way. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's better because I think there are people who strive to be in a place of stoicism. Like, oh, this doesn't bother me. It didn't bother me. It's fine. But it does. And so they deny that part of themselves. And so that stuff just gets stuff down in there and it ends up coming out in all kinds of, who knows? What kind of way alcoholism or they're late to work every day for some reason, or they whatever it is. So the whole Stoicism thing or being absent of emotion is a goal. But there is a process to get to there. If you're not balanced, if you're not grounded, if you're not strengthened in those areas, honestly, in a lot of ways, it doesn't do you any good over the long term. Yeah, I feel like there's like when you actually read Marcus Aurelius or Epic Denis from 2500 years ago or something like that. But it's different than the media version of Stoicism or something. These guys actually didn't claim not to have emotions or something like this. It's almost like when people are trying to do what they think Stoicism should be instead of actually this idea of like, when I think about the stuff I've read of theirs, whatever the translations of the original are right to me, it feels, or at least the helpful parts that I've taken from it, feel like, hey, you don't have to pretend not to have emotions. You don't have to pretend to not have a knee jerk reaction about something. It's just that kind of like Victor Franco, like, realize I have a choice. Am I going to continue with my knee jerk reaction, or am I going to choose my emotions from here on out? I'm totally with you, and that takes development. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure it does. Honoring however it is that you feel and then figuring out how you're going to channel and exude whatever your response is going to be out at the end. But it kind of goes back to what is that you were saying. Like, what is is I'm Super ticked and I have a choice whether I'm going to indulge in that feeling or go solve the problem. They can both be true. I don't know if you feel differently. No, I feel exactly the same way that you do. In my experience, it takes a long time to get there a specific focus on trying to what is that? And to build sort of that muscle. And not everybody spends time building that muscle, but many people, I think, maybe read the abridge version and say, okay, I'm not going to respond, no, I'm not going to do this, whatever. And then it just comes out steam in the ears.
We're talking about the same thing. I just feel like in order to be with it, with a group of people who can process it in that way, like, hey, I can choose how to do this, and I'm going to take whatever higher road I think is what it is. In order for that to be genuine, there has to be real strength and development and awareness that needs to go on. And that's not common that I've seen. It just isn't common. They take the shortcut and say, Well, I'm just not going to tell you or I'll deal with it later. Whatever. Like you said, completely. They're not even the same thing. Well, maybe if we have time for one more story, I feel like one of my other favorite things to ask Special Operations Forces guys is who's somebody maybe early in your career, maybe not, that had a really big impact on you. Like, who did you look up to or who did you want to be more like in your career or who's somebody that had a big positive impact on you? And can you tell us any kind of a story of an example of what they're like?
Is there anybody that comes to mind? I know I'm putting you on the spot. No. The one person that keeps coming to mind is Martin Luther King, Jr.
Obviously has nothing to do with your answer or your question. Really? I've had so many great leaders in the sense of like, yeah, I want to emulate this guy. I want to mirror what that guy is doing. But I think we could all agree that there's so much value in the people that teach us. That's not how I want to do stuff as well. Yeah, I think. And you don't have to name names, but is there nobody in the team that you can think of or what they were like? Yeah, there's a position in the Navy, it's called leading Petty Officer, or LPO, and it is the bridge between kind of the sled dogs and the leadership. Lpos aren't quite leadership yet, but that's their next step. So they're the conduit between the boys on the ground and the guys making all the calls and showing up as a new guy in the Seal teams is not the most comfy of jobs. Yeah, 100%, 100%. And just to the ultimate level of not only your FNG, but you're an FNG here. And what you don't know is going to get us all killed and everything, and you should die and all that. I guess for some for effing new guy, but go on. Yeah, absolutely. Lpos, are they're human beings? Of course. And so you never know what kind of LPO you're going to get. My first LPO, we call it a task unit back then was full of guys who had been to war together multiple times. Their brand was that we are the most aggressive task unit in the Seal teams. And so showing up to that and being a medic at heart, having a heart, loving people and that kind of stuff, I was very quickly like I was in an unfamiliar territory, and I just so happened to find the LPO that I had, saw who I was, and he saw that I wasn't necessarily like one of these guys, not like the other. But instead of getting rid of me, instead of showing me the door, kind of weeding me out or whatever it was, he continued to remind them, don't forget, I showed up the Phillipines like an older dude. Some of these guys are showing up there 21, 22 years old. I was like 30 or 31 or something like that at the time, but I still felt like a baby just being there and just not necessarily fitting. And as we went on, he just really made sure to continually remind me to not change that there was value in who I was. It may not necessarily be like everybody else's, but I was there to be a paramedic or a medic on the Seal teams, and he knew that I was a civilian paramedic for five years before I got there. So I had all this experience. Like, there was value in my purpose in place of being there. And just because I wasn't chomping at the bit to kill everybody I saw, he saw that there was still value in me. And when you're in these alone places, because you could be in a room full of people and be completely alone, I was completely alone when I was with these guys. But when he would walk into the room, I was like, okay, I got one guy, and he was like a boss to me for sure. And to have that, to be so unfitting, like, in the sense of not meshing with this, but still to be welcomed and valued is something that I'll never forget. And so it's easy for me to see that in others if somebody's not like one of the other, like, okay, well, what is it about you? That's amazing. And so let's make sure that we get to reap the rewards of your awesomeness rather than you're not like us, so you can just leave now. Yeah, it's a big influence. Seal teams are such a small community. I spent most of my time on the East Coast, but and even funny, even Philippines, there's a lot of segregation between east and West Coast. It just is the way it is. But remaining on the East Coast, I got to sort of be involved in being in connection with this guy throughout my career and throughout his and see him go off and do amazing, great things. I was really grateful to have him in my life, yet such a great story. I'm thinking about the work application of that. And there's a lot of research that says that if your employee has at least R1 friend at work, your retention factor goes way up. If they feel like they've got at least R1 friend. That's an interesting question. I think as a boss, do I know who my staff's real friend is? Like, do stewardship of am I caring about my people? Do I know that everybody has somebody else, or have I made sure my managers have made sure? Is that something that's on my radar? I mean, look at how powerful it was for you. And think about had you been weeded out to 15 years of benefit our country wouldn't have gotten from your service there. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think about that a lot. And not only that, but what I was bringing to the table from having all of those years of failure too, coming in like I wasn't just a new guy. And that makes me understand that no one is just a new guy. There's all this stuff that we're bringing. So yeah, for sure, the 15 year post career that went on from there in my 30 years of life prior to all this stuff as a brand new medic, I don't know how many gunshot wounds I treated already on the streets of Massachusetts, Florida and Hawaii as having my own leadership positions within the ambulance companies and things like that. I had all of this stuff stabbings, high velocity impacts from car crashes and all of that stuff was new to me. I've done it a million times. In fact, I remember a comment somebody made when I showed up to the team. They're like, man, you're going to show up to combat and you're going to have already done everything. And I told them the one thing that I haven't experienced was I've never had to treat anybody that I loved. I don't know what that's going to be like. And it turns out it was just the same. Just because you don't see the value doesn't mean that it's not there. Human beings are entirely complex. You can have a whole podcast on just the complexity of human beings. So if you look at somebody and don't see value, it's because you're not looking. And maybe that's something within the self that you got to pay closer attention to. But there is value. There's genius in everyone. So if you're not spending time to tap into that, you're just missing out on this whole huge aspect of the people that you actually have working for you. And one of the things you're talking about, like, I don't know if my people have friends or not, as a business owner or as a CEO or whatever, you can create these environments to allow those things to kind of happen. The value of people and then understanding and creating these scenarios where people can where you facilitating these friendships to develop in military units and things like that. It's almost like how you do work is creating those situations to happen. Because when we spend the entire day out on the range and we're shooting guns and we're running around and doing stuff and we have helicopters coming in, all of that is kind of like a team building experience. It is how we go about doing work. But for organizations that don't have that, I highly recommend getting your people out of the buildings that you're in and having them engage in completely different ways than they're used to. Because friendships that may not necessarily have been. I mean, you think about people who are in sales and then people who are in HR, whatever, they don't interact or the scientists don't interact with the salespeople or whatever. Creating those environments where they're standing shoulder to shoulder and just experiencing these things together can promote those things where yes. Oh, wait a minute. I got a whole army of people that are awesome right here where I work. It's amazing. Great. Listen, this has been awesome. I think everybody should be going to check out thetridentapproach.com anything you want to leave us with here today. Yes. One of the most common things that I'm noticing in all my interactions with either big time companies or individuals, because we coach individuals as well, is almost nearly every issue or problem that they have with a relationship at home or at work can all be rooted to solve. But it's just a matter of uncovering that stuff and saying, how am I contributing to the problem as it is? Obviously, that takes a really honest approach and you have to be good at it. But I would challenge you to whenever you are having difficult relationships, wherever they may be, is to kind of let those emotions kind of come and go, let it be what it is. And then after that say, okay, is there anything that I am doing that's facilitating this situation from being the way it is? And almost always you'll find out, oh, yeah, this is part of me too. And it's all good. Nobody's fault. But it's just if you want to make any changes, starting with the self, rather than I got to fix my team because they're broken, I need to look at my leadership practices and all that stuff first before I go to them. Any thoughts on that? I feel like there's like a real balance being with that. Like I could do that in a way where I'm like, going through the motions and I really pre decided it's mostly their problem. And I'm intellectually listening a couple of things of mine, but not actually believing it. And then there can be the other side where I'm like, I'm taking responsibility for their decisions, for everything, and I must be an ogre and dump on myself. And any thoughts about down the middle of that balance beam of the correct, the helpful, the deep down honest version of how I contributed to this problem without underdoing or overdoing it. It's very hard to do that. It's really hard to do that very honestly. But the best way to get past all of that is to get to a place where you understand your ego for what it is. The more you understand about your ego, the easier your question comes to answer. Because now you're starting to say, okay, this is my ego. Either it's all my fault or it's only their fault. Okay, cool. I hear what you're saying, but the more in touch you are with your true self, it's very clear. Things come very clear. So that's what I was saying before where it kind of takes time when it's okay. The only people who are concerned about time are people like the universe doesn't care that it takes you 50 years to figure out an answer to the question. It doesn't matter. So what I would say is everything is just like a weight room. So if you're struggling to figure out what role you do or don't play, just do it anyway and just know. Boys, this is one of the most powerful lessons that I learned. I feel is that I'm not going to do it right and I can't go wrong. And so as long as you're practicing, as long as you understand that you just like everyone else is a work in progress and you just let it be. You're going to win some. You're going to lose some, whatever it is. But just the pursuit as long as it's rooted in good or truth, real truth. It's all good. You're not going to get it right don't worry about it. You're not going to get it wrong because when you do get it wrong, there are lessons to be learned from that and that's life. That's what we're doing here. So it's all good. Yes. I feel like that's a mic drop moment right there. Mic drop. That's it. This is awesome. Hey, thanks again for doing this. I appreciate you so much. Jess, thank you so much. I had a really good time. Great. Me, too. I had a really great time. Hey, you need to write a book and I'll have you back on the podcast. You can come talk about it. It's coming early next year. Really. Okay. Let's schedule it. Let's have you back on once it out. It's. I appreciate you so much for asking us back. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you bet. Bye, everyone. Bye.